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| Cicerone denuncia Catalina (Cesare Maccari, 1888) |
Catiline's Legacy: What Do You Think?
Catiline has been viewed through Cicero's eyes in the history books of our time. As such, he has been labeled a corrupt traitor and ambitious revolutionary full of evil, sparking a revolution simply for personal gain. Recently, however, some have argued the opposite: that he was a champion of the poor and the poverty-stricken, both in Rome and the surrounding Italian countryside, urging revolution for social reform. Where do you stand on this argument? Was Catiline a corrupt traitor, or an ambitious social reformer?
Before posting, please read the "Legacy" section (at the end) of Wikipedia's entry for Catiline. The entry can be found at the link below. After reading the short excerpt, please answer the question above.
Catiline Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catiline
Remember to use your Latin name when posting...we don't want your personal information floating around out there on the web!
Remember to use your Latin name when posting...we don't want your personal information floating around out there on the web!
Aurora p. 7:
ReplyDeleteI think that Cataline was not as evil as Cicero made him out to be. Although he tried to overthrow the Roman Republic, he did spend most of his time doing reforms for the poor. Even after his death, most of the poor were still loyal to him. I think that for other reasons, Cicero had something against Cataline and wanted him to get out of court. Of course the Conspiracy might of seemed a little twisted for the people of the Republic but the only reason he wanted to is because to him it seemed unjust and unfair.
Personally, I believe Catiline was a corrupt traitor of Rome. To me, he only "helped" the poor to gain their support because he knew that no one else would support him. Also, in canceling debt, he was annoying the people that wouldn't vote for him as consul. You see, Catiline was born into a family that originally had much power and money. However, as the years went on, his family lost their influence on Rome. Another thing to realize is that most leaders that try to create a revolution use the large mass of peasants and the poor to help them for they outnumber the one's with actual power. Think about it. If Catiline wasn't a traitor, why would he focus on helping the poor if he was rich and wanted to get on the good side of those voting for him. Wouldn't he be angry that he was never voted for and lost all his power? Wasn't it proven that he committed many crimes such as murder? Catiline was a truly evil man seeking revenge and revival of his family name.
ReplyDeleteArtemis p7 Cataline was a corrupt person who only wanted power. Some could argue that he was on the peasants side and that he wanted to help them, but I don't think thats completely true. In the Life of Cataline it said that Cataline had a trial for all of his transgressions, but bribed the judge and pid no penalty. Catiline did many sick, illegal, and destructive things, so why we he want to help people if he also hurts them. I think that the only reason why he said he wanted to end debt is because he needed support in order to gain power. The only way we could have known if he really was interested in the welfare of the people is if he came into power and did erase debt.
ReplyDeleteHera period 7:
ReplyDeleteI think that Cataline was not evil as many Romans claimed he was. I think he had a lot of courage as a military leader by not only leading but fighting as a solider. I also think he deserves respect for trying to help the poor and gain the power back for his family. I think that Cicero just thought he was evil because he tried to stand up to his own country but in reality that was a courageous act and most people would have not done that no matter how bad they wanted something. Cataline also had many ideas about how he wanted to reform Rome that were advanced for his time therefore I think he deserves respect for thinking in a new way and really trying to improve Rome for the good of the people.
In my opinion, Catiline was definatly a corrupt traitor, and not an ambitious social reformer. He had done many terrible crimes in his life and also plotted against his own country. There is still existing proof of his terrible plan to end his countries government so that he could get what he wanted. Also there are many primary sources from tons of different people telling of his corruptness. Many argue that these sources are all from his enemies, but he wouldn't have that many enemies if he wasn't a corrupt traitor. Therefore he was definatly not an ambitious social reformer, but a scheming corrupt traitor to his country.
ReplyDeleteI think Cataline was a ambitious social reformer, because he wasn't trying to just overthrow the goverment to get all the power, he was overthrowing the goverment to fix it because he knew a correct way of running it. Althought he wanted to kill some Senators, he was doing it because they were corrupt and would destory the goverment eventualy unless they were stopped. Cataline was just ambitious or anxious.
ReplyDeleteI think Catiline was a traitor. In my opinion, I think anyone trying to overthrow social order is a traitor, though being a traitor isn't necessarily a bad thing. If you think about it, the founding fathers of America were betraying their government, making them traitors. Catiline just wanted to get power back to his family, though he could have done it in more honest ways.
ReplyDeleteI think that Cataline was an ambitious leader who was put on the spot of accusations that have not one account of any source of there actually being evidence during the first Catalinian conspiracy. It seems that the accounts represent a collection of rumors accusing different political figures in attempts to tarnish their names. In this case, Cicero who used his speech against Cataline during his campaign speech.
ReplyDeleteMatt Markella (i forget my latin name)
Catiline was a traitor i have written this 4 times i am not writing it again
ReplyDeleteI believe Cataline was a revolutionary not a traitor. He was a man who fought for he poor along with trying to save his own name as well. In a lot of places the government needs to be put into check sometimes. This exact reason is why the United States has the system of checks and balances to prevent corruption. In a way Cataline was doing something just like that but he failed and paid dearly for it. So in the end Cataline died a hero's death way in front of the lines of his men, fighting against his country, but in a way for it as well.
ReplyDelete(Zeus?) P7
Ian
caroline shauns period 7
ReplyDeleteThe subject of Cataline is controversial topic that has different views and perspectives from different sides of the story. In my opinion Cataline was not the corrupt official the rome claimed him to be but a struggling potiltican that was trying to reinstate his family name. Though his tactics were deceiving and his idea some what ahead of his time, Cataline had some reforms that could have had potential. His idea to rid the empire of debt was one that many pleabians admired, his annul failure to be elected brought a shadow of shame over his name. Cataline's dismal failure to get ellected proballt killed his chances of getting elected fairly, so he decided to use trickery to create a cultural revolution. Who's to say that revolution was not needed? Cataline may have used tactics that should be frowned upon but his intention to justify his familu name, which is something to admire.
Catiline was a corrupt man all he wanted was power he didnt care about the commoners he only took that stance to have some followers. He would have killed much of the senate if he had the chance. Catiline went out fighting but lived a coward. He was a corrupt polotician and nothing more.
ReplyDeleteMagnum Pomum p. 7
ReplyDeleteI beleive that Cataline was not a traitor of Rome, but an ambitious social reformer. I think this ecause he was not taking over Rome just to get power, but to help the poor as well. He wanted to hep the poor by implementing things such as tabulae Novae, the universal cancellation of debts. Since the poor people were the people with the debts, this would erase their debts and benifit them. overall i think that the only reason that people think of Cataline as a traitor i because he didnt win, and Cicero, the winnder made him out to be a traitor.
Athena: Per 7
ReplyDeleteBased on the life events of Cataline, I believe he was indeed a corrupt traitor. Although some may believe he had good intentions for his ideas of social reform, they were disapproved for a reason. He proposed his idea of universal cancellation of debts, which would greatly hurt the economy. There was also proof of Cataline devising a plan to destroy the Senate. These incriminating letters prove the fact that he was trying to take over for personal gain, not to help the citizens. Cataline and the other conspirators had a scheme to overthrow the Senate, and there was no proof of him trying to help the Roman citizens.
I believe that Cataline was a social reformer not a traitor. I think that depending on wich side you were on. if you were against Cataline them you would believe that he was a traitor. but if you were on his side then you might think that he is a social reformer. After Cataline died he still had a lot of lower class people following his ways. cataline died in a the line of duty. he died a noble life fighting for reformation.
ReplyDeleteMaia p.7:
ReplyDeleteI think that although Cataline was an ambitious man he also became very corrupt while trying to lead reforms over time. For example, Cataline can from a very respected family in Rome and during his time of reforms, Cataline destroyed his families reputation. Also while the conspiracy led on, Cataline became known as a forceful character who would do anything to take control and/or power. Cataline was also accused for the deaths of many. Although Cicero may have misinterpreted Cataline's conspiracy, Cataline definitely became corrupt during his conspiracy.
Cataline was a corrupt person that had no other choice but to try to turn around his horrible position of misery. Cataline has trouble with his life after loosing to be elected into senate multiple times so he becomes a pariah and people laugh at him so he starts to scheme with other people who have problems. Cicero figures this all out and tweaks it so it is worse and Cataline is throw out and looses because of Ciceros speech. Cataline had no choice but to try anything he could to get wealthier and more power and he failed miserably... Cicero may of lied at first but in the end he had proof and was truthful.
ReplyDeleteI believe that he was a corrupt traitor for many reasons. He was thrown out because he killed people, and he then tried to take power by overthrowing the government. The only reason he wanted to overthrow the government was because he was thrown out in the first place, not because he wanted to help the poor. Maybe if he hadn't killed people, he wouldn't have been thrown out, he wouldn't have tried to take over the government, and maybe he did mean well for the poor, but he did kill those people.
ReplyDeleteI think that Cataline was a social reformer but he was also corrupt. I think that the two were linked because he was so ambitious about his reforms and coming to powerful that he did anything he did a lot of corrupt things. According to the article there is no story of him becoming a traitor that is consistent. I think that most if not all of the accusations were made up by his enemies.
ReplyDeleteModus Vir
i think that cataline was a framed man who could not catch a break. He got a bad rep from men like Cicero because they made accusations and there was no way to disprove them. he was an ambitious man who got in trouble for his ideas. he tried to help the poor and the wealthy got mad.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI believe that Catiline was a revolutionary and not a traitor. Catiline was accused of several crimes and was said to be guilty for a lot of them. I think that the Catiline conspiracy was completely made up so that Cicero wouldn't lose power. I think that the only one guilty of conspiracy was Cicero.
ReplyDeleteEven though Cataline made many reforms in Rome, he did so in a corrupt manner. As a young boy, his family had a good reputation. However, as he grew older and projected his actions, their family reputation dwindled. His proposal of the cancellation of debts was not effective the economy of Rome at all and that's what Cataline favored the most. Passing this reform could shatter what was left of Rome's economy at the time. To become more powerful and wealthy, he would do anything to get their hurting anyone who got in the way of his success. He ruined any chances of getting himself back into the government by not getting in the first time. If he had been accepted in the first place, he wouldn't have gone forward with using trickery and fraud the second time. All in all, Cataline did much to reform the ways and people of Rome. However, the way in which he completed the reforms was brutal and unnecessary.
ReplyDeleteVuples Inculta P1. i think that Cicero was right in blaming Cataline. because Cataline started a revolution against the roman people. killing tons of romans. but it ultimately failed and Cataline was killed even though he was just looking for revenge.
ReplyDeleteDespite the many historians who now look at Cataline as a hero, I believe was still a traitor. Whether he killed the people he was accused of killing or not, the leaders of the government didnt want him as a ruler for a reason. Since he could not win the election for consul, he thought he could just take it away from the preferred candidates by going against the government. Cataline did admit to being a part of the conspiracy and he just wanted power for himself. To try and win over the people he may have made it look like he was doing this for the citizens, but in reality, he was a power hungary politician, who thought that by becoming a traitor, he could take down the Senate. Cataline, I believe, was a traitor to his people and his country.
ReplyDeleteCataline was not the perfect person, obviously. He had flaws just like anybody else, and maybe those flaws were more prominent than other peoples, causing him to "stick out". I think Cataline was an ambitious reformer more then a corrupt traitor. In Rome in those days, your family name was something of honor and respect. And people looked to keep this. I think that anybody would have done the same thing if they had a family who was one of the most respected in Rome, but had dropped in status. It is just that for Cataline, the ambition and actual action to restore this family name was much more present. That combined with some "personality" issues, caused for relentless attack on Cataline, from Cicero and Sallust, who even accused Cataline of drinking the blood of a sacraficed child in a ritual. I think Cataline meant well, and in my opinion, he was just like any other man in ancient Rome trying to restore his family's prominence.
ReplyDeleteCataline is not a traidor. he did do some pretty bad things, but he only did it to help others. He also tried to overthrow the ROman Republic, but he spent most of his time trying to help out the poor. i think that Cataline is more of a social reformer than a traidor. i think he was brave for dying while fighting for what he beleived him and he was helpful. also, the poor people were still following him once he died.
ReplyDelete^regina
ReplyDeleteperiod 1 latin
I think that Catiline was not very evil. I think that because he fought, he wasnt evil because if he was evil, why would he fight? the peasants were right and Cicero was wrong. Respect to Catiline
ReplyDeleteI believe that Catiline was an ambitious social reformer. Although he was seen as corrupt, what he was trying to do was get rid of corruption. He did want power for he and his family, but he also sought to help the poor. An example of this is the attempt to erase any debt. His ways may have gone awry at one point in his conspiracy but he was still more of a reformer than traitor.
ReplyDeleteelectra
ReplyDeleteAs opposed to the Romans' view of Catiline, there are many things that suggest that he is not the lying traitor they make him out to be. He was a little scheming and corrupt, but so are all politicians, especially back then. He befriended the peasants in order to gain support, and some say that was a calculated move, but many many other people have done that in the past and it hasn't been considered "evil". Also, Catiline had many good ideas for social reform that he could have put into effect, had he been elected office. He did some bad things, but everyone has in their life, and that doesn't make him completely evil.
I believe that Catiline was not a traitor to his country, but instead a reformer whose plans did not work out. His plans for the Senate and the Republic were no more radical than other plans, like those of Julius Caesar. If Catiline had been successful, he would have gone down in history as a social reformer who threw corruption out of Rome. By failing, he was cast down and known as crazy and selfish. Even when his plans failed, Catiline kept his honor and fought on the frontlines with his soldiers, dying alongside them. Even his enemy, Cicero, praised his values and honor, as well as his military strategy. History is written by the victor, and Catiline is a prime example, known throughout history as a corrupt man while those around him were even more corrupt.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion I view Catiline as a traitor. The rulers of the goverment did not want him as a leader because of his earlier accusations. They believed that Catiline's ways would hurt the Economy. Catiline got on the good side of the poor people and made them like him, for example canceling debt. This was a lot of people and was a cheap move. Catiline just wanted power and was selfish. He was not trying to help the goverment which is an example of a traitor.
ReplyDeleteI think that catiline was just a social reformer that the romans did not want. I bet if cicero hadn't torn him apart then he might have actually reformed something. But as he continued his thoughts, I think he became more corrupt and therefore wanted to take power from the free people. He had good intentions, but good intentions are the road to hell.
ReplyDeleteBradus Duggan
i believe that cataline was not a good ruler and was a traitor. Catalines place with the rulers of the government was not good. he was accused many times of actions that would prevent him from being a good and succesfull leader. Cataline would do nothing for the republic except hurt it, his only followers were the poor because he targeted them to make them follow him. he is a bad man and would be bad for the roman republic.
ReplyDeleteCataline was a traitor, but also a not very good ruler. He became on the good side of the poor people by canceling debt. The rulers of government did not like Cataline and his ways, but the people were with Catlaline. Because, the majority of population was the poor. In no way he was trying to help the government. He was trying to gain power for hiself
ReplyDelete-ross kellar
I think that Catiline wasnt as evil as people think he his. The only reason people thought he was evil was because Cicero called him out. If Cicero didnt call Catiline out, then the idea of him would never have come to be. Even after his death, peasants still respected him, and disregarded the evil person Cicero claimed Catiline to be. After Catiline died, even Cicero claimed that Catiline had the greatest of virtues. Catiline also had the greatest amount of courage that no one else could possess. In my mind, i think Catiline was just unliked by people because of his great character. Catiline also died fighting for his beliefs and city on the frontline of the army
ReplyDeleteI believe that Cataline was not as corrupt and evil as the Romans, especially Cicero, made him out to be. Although he planned a conspiracy to overthrow the senate and become a sole consul, he had some good attributes and made some brave decisions to help some of the poorer Romans. Cataline spoke with eloquence and stayed loyal to his friends while trying to help the less fortunate. His bravery was seen on the battlefield when he fought on the frontline of soldiers and died for his cause. Even Cicero eventually admitted that Cataline had many great virtues. Overall, I believe that the Romans and some historians made Cataline seem more worse than he actually was.
ReplyDeleteVenus, per. 2
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Catiline was a traitor. He truly believed that what he was planning to do with the conspiracy theory would help Rome. One could see that the many of the people also agreed that this was the case because even though they may not agree with what he was doing, they had respect for his ambition. It also seemed that the only ones who had problems with Catiline's plans were politicians, he had support among the peasants, who didn't regard him as the horrible person that Cicero made him out to be. The fact that Catiline had any support at all shows that he could not be as bad as the rumors spread about him displayed him as.
Regarding whether or not Cataline was traitor or just ambitious, there is a lot of controversy. It is obvious that the winners are the ones who write history, and the losers who suffer. Cataline certainly died a heroic death on the battlefield, fighting for what he believed in. His beliefs are what make him the person he is seen as today. Even Cicero thought he had good virtues. His motives were the problem, and the pressure from his family to rise back to the top could have influenced many if not all of his political decisions. It is hard to say whether or not he was at fault now, but we do know that he is not entirely bad.
ReplyDelete-Eptesicus Vir
Cataline proposed radical ideas strongly in favor of the peasantry which would have done away with much of the Patrician wealth. For this he was strongly opposed by the wealthy, often influential and powerful, people of Rome. Cicero himself admitted that Cataline was a man of strong virtue. While some rumors may be true, I feel that he was just caught up in the rumors of the days.
ReplyDeleteI belive that Cataline was not a corrupt politician. I think the only reason why people belived that Cataline was a corrupt politician was because of Cicero and him telling the people many bad rumors about him. He then ended up becoming a little more and more corrupt because of all the things being said. he then wasnt able to reform anything because no one else belived him.
ReplyDeleteMaurice Wheelock (Penn State Fan) I believe that Cataline was a BIG TRAitor ALso he was a corupt politician.Even though that Cicero said that Vatline was a man of very strong virtueAlthough he planned a conspiracy to overthrow the senate and become a sole consul, he had some good attributeCataline, I believe that Cataline was a traitor to his country
ReplyDeleteThere is a lot of arguing over whether Catiline was a corrupt traitor or ambitious social reformer. I believe that Catiline was a corrupt traitor. He was brought to court on charges of adultery, but he was found innocent. He did though have a distinguished military career, fighting in many wars. He was also the governor of Africa at one point. He did have success, but he was a traitor. He began to attach other men of senatorial rank to his conspiracy. He was a man with a great military background, but I just think he was too shady to be a social reformer.
ReplyDeleteI think that Catiline was not a traitor but mostly an ambitious social reformer. There really is no actual answer because there is evidence to support both sides of this controversy. However the idea of him being a traitor comes from the relationship he had with his family. For example he was accused of killing his own brother-in-law. Also he was just a strong leader causing people to not like him as much as they should have. He was a large political and military influence and fought in many wars. He was very ambitious in that he kept trying to get into the consul after being denied every time. I do not think that Catiline was fully evil, he was just very devoted to fighting.
ReplyDeleteKalypso
ReplyDeletePeriod II Latin
I do think that Cataline was a bad person, however I do not think he was as bad of a person as Cicero and other Romans made him out to be. Cicero described Cataline as "a slightly deranged revolutionary, concerned more with the cancellation of his own debts". Cataline tried to overthrow the Senate's power so he could rule, when Cicero heard of his plan he stopped it, and Cataline was furious. Cataline was a large political and military leader, and he was also the governor of Africa. Cataline was a very dedicated leader who died on the battlefield. I feel that Cataline was corrupt but he was also a dedicated leader that died for his cause.
I think that Cicero depicted Cataline as a much worse Roman figure than he actually is. Cicero said that Cataline was a great political and military leader, which is good, but he also said that Cataline wanted to assassinate other leaders so that he could take their power. I feel like while this very well could have been true, Cicero put this into his own words and just wanted to make Cataline sound unworthy. I think that Cataline liked to make himself sound better by making others sound worse. (Frances Anne McDonald)
ReplyDeleteBased on the wikipedia entry, Catiline was portrayed by Cicero as a tyrant and enemy of the Roman Senate. Catiline often gave favor to the poor population of Roman citizens through various ways. One of the ways he did so was by the way that he relieved the poor citizens of debt by cancelling debt that they possessed. This placed the senate in an angered rage and they placed the blame of their economic troubles on the acts of Catiline. Although Catiline was portrayed as a tyrant, i believe that he was just an ambitious social reformer. -Sean M
ReplyDeleteThere are two ways that you can look at Catiline. You can consider him a evil tyrant or rather a eager social reformer. I consider Catiline a eager social reformer who just wanted to be in power. Catlines family was a very wealthy family at first. Later they started declining in social and financial fortune. He tried for consul so many times, yet everytime he got rejected. Catiline tried to help the poor people of Rome by cancelling the debt that they had. However the Senate got really angry by this move and blamed Catiline for Romes debt. He tried to overthrow the Senate, however Cicero caught him before he could. Even though he didn't complete his dream as a ruler, he died for his country on the battlefield in 62 BC.
ReplyDelete~Ariadne~